My Avenger on a new platform

Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby tony22 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:55 am

The TT maple platform rests directly on the BB, although I have a bunch of ASC Walldamp ready to use between the two if I think it's needed. Under the two blocks the motor is sitting on are three Stillpoints Ultra Minis. That is what I'm thinking of swapping around with the motor configuration. What I'd like to do is get one more Ultra Mini and screw all four directly into the bottom of the motor, and have that sit on the blocks. I did order a single 3" thick 6"x6" block, BTW, to eliminate the two stacked blocks for the motor.
Pass XP-20 & XP-15, AVA 600R, Shahinian speakers, PS Audio DMP & DS, Avenger w/mods, 12" Fatboy gimbal + 2nd mount, Benz LPS, VAS & SS carts, Ortofon Quintet Mono, Logitech Touch, RSA Haley and PSA conditioning, PAD and AZ cables.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby Johnny » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:30 am

Tony22, are you trying to solve an isolation problem/issue?

I love the table but I must be honest, I am not a fan of the set up from a cosmetic standpoint. It looks cobbled together with so many schools of thought from maple boards, baltic birch, symposium, stillpoints etc.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby tony22 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:06 am

Short answer, yes. Here's the long answer... :D

My old setup was the TT and motor sitting on the same piece of 1-1/2" HDF, which sat on a sheet of 3/8" thick slate. The first thing I learned is that HDF is a very poor choice for a platform. The second thing I learned, through measurements with Adjust Plus+ and AM is that having the motor on the same surface is not ideal. I experimented a bit with Symposium Point Pods under the motor to see that it did help (and it did), but the more I thought about it (and read, and talked to others) it seemed the best option would be to try and have the motor on a separate platform mass from the table. At one time even VPI had a VPI table with separate platforms for table and motor. As to maple over Baltic Birch, well I couldn't afford a Symposium Super Segue or Ultra or something like that large enough to further support separate smaller Symposium platforms for motor and table (yes, I do like Symposium products - I find they work). I spoke at length with Peter Bizlewicz and we eventually felt that maple over BB would be a reasonable low cost approach (Peter spoke a lot about the mating of dissimilar materials that I'll admit I didn't quite fully grasp), but they key was to separate, first, the table and motor each from their own maple platforms. Supercouplers over Fat Padz for the table. They do work much better than the stock Avenger pads.

As to the motor? That I'll agree is currently cobbled together. Really a big reason why the Stillpoints are there is to help get the height of the motor right. With a single 3" block under the motor ideally I think I'd like a thick enough set of Fat Padz between the motor and block to get me the right height. So when all would be said and done IMO it really isn't many schools of thought. Table and motor on separate decoupling / thermal dissipation devices, each them on their own maple block / platform, all on a subsurface large enough to hold everything plus a cover.

Look at it this way - the Symposium devices under that table replace the less effective stock pads. The "whatever will wind up being under the motor" will replace the (from a vibration management POV) essentially useless rubber feet. In this respect it's not much different than people using Tender Feet, Bear Paws, etc. Sit the table and motor on separate platforms. They both have to sit on something, so that's pretty much it. :)
Pass XP-20 & XP-15, AVA 600R, Shahinian speakers, PS Audio DMP & DS, Avenger w/mods, 12" Fatboy gimbal + 2nd mount, Benz LPS, VAS & SS carts, Ortofon Quintet Mono, Logitech Touch, RSA Haley and PSA conditioning, PAD and AZ cables.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby Johnny » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:21 am

Thanks Tony for the detailed response. What did the Adjust+ and AM measurements tell you and did they correlate with a noticeable sound deficiency?

As an aside, does Fatboy have the extra large VTA tower knob similar to the HW-40 vta tower?
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby tony22 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:04 am

Johnny, I don't remember the absolute numbers off the top of my head, but the experiments I did with the motor on my old platform setup did show a reduction in THD with improved decoupling - but it was tricky, as trying to "float" the motor resulted in worse W&F. So I think ideally we want to eliminate the motor vibrations from getting to the table / arm / cart, but keep it solidly mounted to whatever mass it's sitting on. Yes, I did hear improved blackness and image solidity when the improvements were made.

My Avenger has the standard sized VTA tower knob. All the others I've seen are the same.
Pass XP-20 & XP-15, AVA 600R, Shahinian speakers, PS Audio DMP & DS, Avenger w/mods, 12" Fatboy gimbal + 2nd mount, Benz LPS, VAS & SS carts, Ortofon Quintet Mono, Logitech Touch, RSA Haley and PSA conditioning, PAD and AZ cables.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby Mr_Putty » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:07 pm

Tony22,
We’re this my setup, and while you are in design thinking mode, I offer the following for consideration:
Definitely put something between the TT maple and Baltic Birch as vibration from your floor and rack will enter the Maple as currently positioned. At your level of TT these might not be obvious for quite a while. Cheap possibilities to increase isolation might be thin squares of plywood, stainless, aluminum, vibration pads made for air conditioning equipment, flat metal cutoff discs, or combinations of any of the above. I agree these choices are not for everyone, but you are 99% of the way there, so you may want to put your resources into new vinyl rather than “expensive” anti-vibration solutions. My own experiments with the Prime motor agree that rubber feet on the motor are not desirable. (Just my opinion here) More mass in the motor stand is better, so long as the motor is coupled to it (sans rubber feet) and the stand itself has some form of decoupling from the TT base. This allows the motor clogging and wiggle to exit the case and at least try to dissipate into a greater more stable mass. When it’s working you can feel the motor case (I use a finger nail) is more “fluid” and less jerky near the pulley. Again, at your level of performance you may need a stethoscope to confirm the improvement, or one of your scope tools. So, I would be looking at a steel motor base or loading a wood base with more mass. I’m not trying to derail your path of assembly or material of choice, just giving my opinion of where I think even more improvement could be made.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby tony22 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:09 pm

Thanks JA!
Pass XP-20 & XP-15, AVA 600R, Shahinian speakers, PS Audio DMP & DS, Avenger w/mods, 12" Fatboy gimbal + 2nd mount, Benz LPS, VAS & SS carts, Ortofon Quintet Mono, Logitech Touch, RSA Haley and PSA conditioning, PAD and AZ cables.
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby MMMC » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:17 am

tony22 wrote:Here’s a nice clean shot of my new setup.

8F7AA93B-3026-42BB-8E61-E947DA20B56C.jpeg



tony22,

The first thing I must say is the aesthetic of the wood support platform is simply "beautiful"!!!
Because you did mention posssible future modification of your setup, I found the less pleasing to the eye, but extremely effective for large VPI tables with external motors, to be a large Symposium Ultra platform. Currently mine is still stranded in South America after I was caught in a 7+ earthquake, and I can't wait to recover it along with my other Symposium equipment racks to rest my HRX and other hardware upon. I posted this as "food for thought" as opposed to searching for the many solutions required in attempting to find multiple solutions for the turntable and the external motor. I will look for a photo to post. My Ultra was supported by two Symposium Isis Equipment racks. At the time my turntable was an Extended Aries which required a rather sizable plot of real estate. Again, simply consider this as food for thought.

MMMC
One of the last HR-X production/ 3DR 12" arm/ ZYX Universe II LOMC with Copper wire/ RCM Sensor 2 phono preamp/ Silver Audio Appasionata IC/ Audio Sensibiity Statement Silver Phono V2 IC
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Re: My Avenger on a new platform

Postby tony22 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:27 am

Yes, I remember that pic. It looked beautiful. While I agree that might be more ideal, this cost me (comparatively) next to nothing. I figured if I eventually move to a big Symposium I can use these bits somewhere else. :)
Pass XP-20 & XP-15, AVA 600R, Shahinian speakers, PS Audio DMP & DS, Avenger w/mods, 12" Fatboy gimbal + 2nd mount, Benz LPS, VAS & SS carts, Ortofon Quintet Mono, Logitech Touch, RSA Haley and PSA conditioning, PAD and AZ cables.
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