Inverted Bearing Wear

Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby Votan » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:58 pm

Come on guys, don't you see the unnatural dent-groove at the top of the ball bearing?
This is easily recongnised by the trapezoidal reflections of light on the slopes of the dent.
The question is, how could this be caused by such light use?
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby danomar » Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:27 pm

Dorian wrote:Is the thing inside the red box below a reflection of the overhead light, or a groove worn into the surface of the bearing?


It is a groove.

I contacted the retailer and he will reach out to VPI. The turntable is still under warranty.

I have owned this Prime since new, and that is only one year thus far, so my only guesses are (A) some form of debris was inside the platter, (B) there was not sufficient lubrication from the factory, of (C) it is a defective bearing/bearing surface.

My understanding is that when that much wear is evident, both the ball bearing and the turntable bearing surface(s) need renewal. A new bearing is going to merely wear both itself and the inner surfaces irregularly and more rapidly, yes?
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby Dorian » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:18 pm

danomar wrote:
Dorian wrote:Is the thing inside the red box below a reflection of the overhead light, or a groove worn into the surface of the bearing?


It is a groove.

I contacted the retailer and he will reach out to VPI. The turntable is still under warranty.

I have owned this Prime since new, and that is only one year thus far, so my only guesses are (A) some form of debris was inside the platter, (B) there was not sufficient lubrication from the factory, of (C) it is a defective bearing/bearing surface.

My understanding is that when that much wear is evident, both the ball bearing and the turntable bearing surface(s) need renewal. A new bearing is going to merely wear both itself and the inner surfaces irregularly and more rapidly, yes?

Yeah I would not expect to see a groove like that after a year, if ever. I've had my Prime for three years and the bearing looks good as new. All I've done is clean and lube it annually.
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby YoungDave » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:28 pm

Danomar,
Speaking for myself, I would be unwilling to go through all the trouble of moving the turntable, packing it up, and, worst of all, handing it to a stranger to repair. The replacement of that bearing is a trivial task; it does not require the simultaneous replacement of the thrust disk in the platter (although that, too, can be replaced with superior materials such as sapphire).

You could learn more from this thread on this forum: http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9686

Cheers,
Dave
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby Votan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:52 am

YoungDave wrote:Danomar,
Speaking for myself, I would be unwilling to go through all the trouble of moving the turntable, packing it up, and, worst of all, handing it to a stranger to repair. The replacement of that bearing is a trivial task; it does not require the simultaneous replacement of the thrust disk in the platter (although that, too, can be replaced with superior materials such as sapphire).
You could learn more from this thread on this forum: http://www.vpiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9686
Cheers,
Dave

Hi YoungDave,
Not at all desiring to diminish the usefulness of the thread you are referring to, I do not think that the proposed mod there is finally a so trivial task. Let's remember the agonizing, painful and not always successful efforts of some members of this forum (tony22, izk, etc.) (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9686&start=210)
Also in such DIY mods that require very high precision, hypothetically there is always the risk of something going wrong, e.g. the ceramic ball bearing to be glued a bit eccentrically, or the sapphire thrust plate (due to the difficulty of placing it in the depth of the narrow well) is very likely not to be clued absolutely horizontal, creating a more or less greater problems than the one that it tries to solve!
Finally, It has also not yet been clarified whether such an intervention does not alters to an unknown direction the sonic character of our expensive VPI TT, which is supposed that for its (factory) specific sonic character we preferred this VPI model among dozens of other proposals from competing TT manufactures.

For this reason and on behalf of all those who want a factory solution to the problem (like the one that tortures danomar) which some time sooner or later to all of us will happen, I once more raise the question, being sure that at least some members of the forum will certainly have valid answers, although it would be good to as well have some official answers from VPI at some time:
1. If we do not want to be involved in DIY adventures, or we are not so skillful as to be able to make such DIY mods, or even we are afraid that could irrevocably change the sonic character of our TT if we do so, how exactly can we replace with original spare parts the ball bearing, and/or the thrust plate, and/or the bushing, for example in a Prime series VPI (inverted bearing).
2. If we live in (say) an overseas country, is it possible to be repaired by the VPI dealer’s technician, or even better, by ourselves? If so, how?
3. If not, what exactly should we do?
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby YoungDave » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:36 pm

Votan wrote:For this reason and on behalf of all those who want a factory solution to the problem (like the one that tortures danomar) which some time sooner or later to all of us will happen, I once more raise the question, being sure that at least some members of the forum will certainly have valid answers, although it would be good to as well have some official answers from VPI at some time:
1. If we do not want to be involved in DIY adventures, or we are not so skillful as to be able to make such DIY mods, or even we are afraid that could irrevocably change the sonic character of our TT if we do so, how exactly can we replace with original spare parts the ball bearing, and/or the thrust plate, and/or the bushing, for example in a Prime series VPI (inverted bearing).
2. If we live in (say) an overseas country, is it possible to be repaired by the VPI dealer’s technician, or even better, by ourselves? If so, how?
3. If not, what exactly should we do?


Those are 3 good questions. It is true that what is trivial for one person may just be beyond another's capabilities. I wish I could answer those 3 questions, but I can't.

Dave
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby Votan » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Really strange to have not gotten any answer to my questions above so far, in such a critical sonic, but also functional problem. Not even officialy!
Dear Danomar, if you have any information about your issue from VPI or from your retailer, please keep us updated.
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby tony22 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Michael, while I thought I had made a summary comment in the original thread, perhaps it was not very apparent. After all of the work, I do think my Avenger is the better for the bearing / plate replacement. I find it to be quieter, with no apparent change to the tonal characteristics of my cartridge. Would I recommend that anyone else try this? Only with extreme caution, and having the person doing it take complete responsibility for any and all outcomes. ;)
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby Votan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:14 am

Dear tony, your detailed description on the respective thread was absolutely aparent to me, both for your intermediate adventures until you reach the desired result, as well as for the sonic nature of the particular mod in your setup.
But the question I ask here, in this thread concerns exactly the opposite. Namely:
For all those who don't want to be involved in DIY adventures, or they are not so skillful as to be able to make such DIY mods, so they want a factory solution to the problem of ball bearing/thrust plate/bushings wear, how exactly can they replace with original VPI spare parts the ball bearing (shaft-ball assembly) and/or the thrust plate, and/or the bushing, for example in Prime, or normal Avenger VPI series (inverted bearing)?
For example is it possible (and easy) to replace only the inverted bearing's shaft-ball assembly by my own? Or even by the dealer's technician here in my country? Or I must send my whole TT to VPI?
If I want to replace just the PEEK (and/or bushings) what is the procedure? Must I send all my plater to VPI premises, or there is a valid way to do it, say in Greece and generally overseas?
And if the answer (as I am afraid) is "YES, you must send them to VPI", is that reasonable and possible this to be repeated every so many years when bearing assemblies wear out?
I understand that these can be difficult (for many reasons) questions. But doesn't everybody here think (and also demand) that at some point (and time) those questions should be responsibly answered as they at least concern the dedicated owners of their respective models?
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Re: Inverted Bearing Wear

Postby tony22 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:59 am

Understood Michael. These are fair and reasonable questions.
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